Armor Resources
 

In anticipation of funding for my up and coming "Mandalorian armor" project I've been scouring the web for a lot of armor related data just to see if anything has changed. I have come across a few resources that may be of interest to the well prepared individual.

First is this thread clearly demonstrating why I am such a strong supporter of ballistic steel for the home defender and survivalist. While you give up the AP rating with LVL III ballistic steel it is virtually immune to any of the threats we will more realistically face. Note that M855 and SS109 are NOT AP and are easily handled by this armor.

Here is a highlight:

Ceramic won't do that.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...=&fpart=1&vc=1

Steel is also much more durable so is more forgiving when stored, moved, jostled and thrashed about amongst your other survival preps in the long years of nothing that precede expected troubles. Steel is indifferent to rain, temperature and time. Its only enemy is rust and this can be easily prevented.

Here is a link to where you can purchase the plate tested in the link.

http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/D...em-P55C45.aspx

Here you can find LVL IIIA groin and face protection. The menpo-like face plate is probably not something for all occasions but does have a real role to play in point defense.

http://www.interamer.net/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=138

Here you can buy sheets of ballistic fabric and panels to form your own armor. I would like to go this route to create a custom helmet.

http://www.infinitycomposites.com/cg...b.pl?catcarkev

These two links will give you some idea of where I'm going with all this. RE: the coat of plates, note especially the 4th through 7th from the top. Fewer larger plates are more applicable to ballistic applications. The armor worn by Jango Fett from Star Wars is actually more in keeping with the current limitations of ballistic materials than the full body coverage as seen with Medieval full plate armor. A fusion of historical coat of plates technology and fictional Mandalorian armor concepts as interpretted through current ballistic materials will yield comprehensive and practical coverage at circa 40lbs for the complete harness.

http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/...gar/index.html

http://www.kamikazcomics.com/shop/images/jango.jpg

The harness will incorporate the garniture concept with pieces that can be added to or removed from the basic armor to suit a variety of roles from concealed protection to raiding to static defense.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Good information, but Diamondback Tactical (the company you linked to) doesn't sell body armor to anyone but military and law enforcement personel (credentials required).

Re: Armor Resources
 

Are you a Star Wars fan? :aetsch: hehe

Re: Armor Resources
 

Yes, some people do have the Captain America poisoning. I know more than a few individuals who do not properly respect the right of the people to defend themselves. If their policy presents a barrier you can try www.bulletproofme.com for a similar product at less cost from a company that does not discriminate against law abiding citizens.

I've seen the movies. I liked the old ones better than the new ones but the original Bobba Fett's armor did not have the same coverage as the new one. At any rate it is nothing too terribly fantastic. A hoplite would have been armored in much the same way, though they recently made a movie about the ancient Greeks, too. The helmet has features of the great helm, Corinthian or barbute - the barbute itself was inspired by the ancient Corinthian helm. Otherwise there is nothing particularly novel about a cuirass, greaves, vambraces, pauldrons and cuisses. Because of the arcane terminology and difficulty in forming ballistic steel into compound curves in a small shop I felt the Star Wars armor best illustrated the sort of geometery I have in mind. Of course it will have to be modified, suspending the cuisses will probably present the greatest challenge.

That, and current jetpack technology is bulky, expensive and can only operate for very short periods limiting its use to publicity stunts. :aetsch:

Re: Armor Resources
 

Just in case you were unaware, here is THE body armor of choice for sand box contractors.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Dragonskin is a great armor that I believe they will sell to any US citizen, though I can't say for sure, as I have not tried.

Paraclete is another body armor company, but I don't know as much about them.

http://www.paracletearmor.com/

Hope that helps.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Dragon Skin is not quite all its cracked up to be.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Or perhaps a quick "bug out" if you get surrounded... :beer:

On the armor note, I've got a decent setup with a Level IIIA vest and trauma plate, with L-IV ceramic plates I can drop in. I paid about $700, which I think is a good deal. Everything is brand new and NIJ certified. The only disadvantage is that the vest lacks complete side coverage, and the plates are quite heavy. I've got a couple PASGT vests and helmets as well, and a couple other concealable vests.

A full body suit would be cool, but I can't afford to build one at the moment. If I was going to do that, I'd want to include NBC protection.

Re: Armor Resources
 

In all reality I am looking into ultralight aircraft for that kind of scenario. I own enough land to have a short runway and I could probably fly a small autogyro in and out of here.

Re: Armor Resources
 

I love this Guy. Always another interesting invention.

Rev how about this.

Electric-Amish

<TABLE class=mainLayout><TBODY><TR><TD class=NL></TD><TD class=CC><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>From bears to bullets


By Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jan 11, 2007) The grizzly man is back, and this time he's ready to take on bullets and bombs.
Troy Hurtubise, the Hamilton-born inventor who became famous for his bulky bear-protection suit by standing in front of a moving vehicle to prove it worked, has now created a much slimmer suit that he hopes will soon be protecting Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and U.S. soldiers in Iraq.
He has spent two years and $15,000 in the lab out back of his house in North Bay, designing and building a practical, lightweight and affordable shell to stave off bullets, explosives, knives and clubs. He calls it the Trojan and describes it as the "first ballistic, full exoskeleton body suit of armour."
Using the hard-learned lessons of his Project Grizzly experience -- a 20-year odyssey that included a National Film Board documentary, an appearance on CNN and personal bankruptcy -- he's ready to start selling his newest idea.
Already, he says, the suit has stood up to bullets from high-powered weapons, including an elephant gun. The suit was empty during the ballistics tests, but he's more than ready to put it on and face live fire.
"I would do it in an instant," he said. "Bring it on."
Yesterday, he returned to Hamilton to show off the suit, hoping to generate some publicity that will get him the meetings he wants with military and police outfitters.
On Saturday, he plans to wear it to Nathan Phillips Square in downtown Toronto and wait for the reporters. It shouldn't take long to create a stir.
Hurtubise, 43, wore his suit -- helmet and all -- on the four-hour drive down south, partly as a way of making sure it would be comfortable enough in the field. Even sitting on his armoured butt cheeks, he said he was fine.
As he drove his black pickup in his black getup, other drivers gawked and honked. Just south of Huntsville, he was delighted to be pulled over and gave an apprehensive OPP officer a close-up look at the suit.
Once he established that he could see just fine in his helmet and that the guns attached to his magnetic holsters were just props, Hurtubise was free to continue his trip.
The whole suit -- which draws design inspiration from Star Wars, RoboCop, Batman and video games -- is made from high-impact plastic lined with ceramic bullet protection over ballistic foam.
Its many features include compartments for emergency morphine and salt, a knife and emergency light. Built into the forearms are a small recording device, a pepper-spray gun and a detachable transponder that can be swallowed in case of trouble.
Dangling between the legs, that would be a clock.
In the helmet, there's a solar-powered fresh-air system and a drinking tube attached to a canteen in the small of the back. A laser pointer mounted in the middle of the forehead is ready to point to snipers, while LED lights frame the face.
The whole suit comes in at 18 kilograms. It covers everything but the fingertips and the major joints, and could be mass-produced for about $2,000, Hurtubise says.
He said he hopes to earn enough of a living from the suit so he can keep on inventing, but the real reason he did this, he says, is "for the boys."
w


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Re: Armor Resources
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1965
http://i13.tinypic.com/2u5yqh1.jpg

Re: Armor Resources
 

Aside from the sci-fi aspects that isn't far off from what I'm talking about. It looks like I'll be able to begin building mine in July.

Re: Armor Resources
 

My research into the subject of steel Vs bullets suggests that other than an RC hardness of 50 to 51 that the heat energy released by a high velocity impact seems to be the greatest single factor in penetrating an armor plate. This would suggest to me that a high speed steel with lots of moly and chrome, maybe even high carbon stainless steel, would offer superior performance compared to some currently used alloys. I am also curious what effect improved elasticity granted by exotic heat treating methods like martempering and austempering would provide, I'd like to test cro-treated steel as well.

I probably won't be set up to manufacture my own steel test plates till next year but when I am I will also be able to form compound curves and other complex shapes in steel plate prior to heat treat so I ought to be able to produce some pretty amazing armor by that point. I will make use of deflective surfaces as most sophisticated ancient armor did. Till then I might at least be able to get a shop to heat treat test samples for me according to my specs.

Re: Armor Resources
 

I too would like to construct a modular armor suit, but probably will not begin for seven or eight months. Keep up the posting; Im certain others are as interested as I.

I have no idea if this is possible, but you might want to look into a lightweight outer layer that would reduce detection by FLIR.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Rmac knows ultras

Re: Armor Resources
 

All I can say is WOW. Our own tax dollars will come back to haunt us someday. How is that for irony. You see a couple of these guys walkin up your drive see if they will aquiesce when you shout, hey buddy my tax dollars paid for you -

Re: Armor Resources
 

There are very good reasons to keep a standing army, we are living most of them. It is the responsibility of all free people to present a credible deterent to any and all tyrants.

If some supertroopers ever start walking up my drive I'm not going to shout anything at them. I'll just invite them over for some cocktails...

Re: Armor Resources
 

REV127,

Any updates on you armor project?

I'm thinking about purchasing a ProMAX Concealable IIIA vest for $600. They also sell plate pockets that can attach to the vest.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Dragonskin is now in trouble with DOD who says they've committed fraud. Some news items on this available.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Is that dragonskin debacle just retaliation for pinnacle making a better product and publicly raising hell when the DoD refused to accept it? I heard the only trial it failed was a heat test, where the laminate that encases the silicon carbide scales melted. I'd still like to get a few rods of silicon carbide and a shop that will cut them into 2.5mm disks...

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/011.html They'll sell to civillians I believe. Check out their other products, they make custom LBV's and such.

A friend of mine got back from Iraq recently and couldn't stop talkin about how much the ceramic armor sucks. Bulky, very easily destroyed by things other than gunfire, etc. He fell off a truck and the plate shattered. After hearing all that, I decided that when I'm able to, I'll go the route Rev is discussing, and just cut up and possibly heat treat some HY80 or HY100 to whatever rockwell will work best :wink:

Re: Armor Resources
 

Also, this would be nice to add armor to, and make a fully enclosed exoskeleton :coolbeer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynL8BCXih8U

Re: Armor Resources
 

Not many of these seem to protect your balls. I guess that reduces flexibility, but for me, I'd want some Dragonskin underpants as balls are not optional equipment.

Re: Armor Resources
 

This is a Russian Maska helmet. These are going for around $900.


http://i13.tinypic.com/6293s45.gif

http://i11.tinypic.com/5x81fdl.gif

Re: Armor Resources
 

One of my friends who got back from iraq not too long ago said he'd love more face protection, but if you were struck in the helmet or neck with a .30 cal, even if the helmet stopped the projectile, the force could break your neck. Anyone know if thats true? He says he'd opt for being lighter and more agile over heavier and bullet resistant any day.

In any event, I've been interested in persuing some sort of exoskeletal support system for holding a fully enclosed helmet where it needs to be, that allows for full range of motion head movement, but would instantly become rigid if struck with a projectile.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

If a skeletal system could be constructed of something lightweight and tough, with a series of ball sockets forming some sort of spine, the vertebre of which are connected to each other with bands (kevlar?) treated with some sort of nanoparticle fluid, then any force that could cause serious damage would be negated by the skeleton tightening to protect the head from snapping the neck. Anyone know if theres a fluid that would be suitable?

Re: Armor Resources
 

Nope, can't break your neck but it can ring your bells. The impact of a bullet is no greater than the recoil of the firearm. Sure, the energy levels are high, but the event is over very very quickly. The main effect is putting lots of energy on a small space to cause penetration of the projectile.

There are things I like about the Russian maska helmets but they're bred from riot helmets, don't expect too much ballistic protection or visibility from the 2mm thick face shields. I wouldn't mind adding one to my armory, though. Not very pretty, but they are very interesting.

Combat light is a very important concept. Being armored from head to toe can be good for standing around waiting for something bad to happen, point defense or dynamic entry but for general purposes you have to balance your total weight encumberance carefuly. I don't want to be wearing and carying much more than 50lbs when the bullets start flying. I'll fudge it a little on gear that can be quickly dropped or ammo that will be used up in short order. That's why I'm interested in a modular harness, add or remove pieces to tailor to circumstances.

Powered armor is well beyond my abilities and practical powered armor is currently beyond fieldable technologies. The Japanese will give Asimo a rifle before anybody builds a useable suit of powered armor for a footsoldier. Just as well, an armed robot is the ultimate armor. You control it from a distance and won't be injurred if it gets blown up. If I were king I'd have legions of battlebots sitting around in case of trouble. I wouldn't expect them to outfight humans on a one-on-one level, but you can have so many more autonomous vehicles than you can have human pilots, at a certain point economies of scale kick in. You can buy a lot of SAM's for the price of an F-22.

Re: Armor Resources
 

I think I read something about how the air force wants to design an autonomous swarm of very small UAV's that would be programmed to use dynamic "swarm" behavior to accomplish their goals. That sure would be a sight to see!

As for situational use of heavy armor, I don't need to tell you you're right :bear_tongue: As far as asymmetrical warfare, I'd love an exoskeleton. Exoskeletons would change logistics a bit, but a humvee could be loaded with some sort of large capacitor bank for recharging the capacitor banks (if we've replaced batteries by then) in the exoskeletons, and some 2-1/2 ton trucks could have advanced power generators to replenish the humvees.

One cool thing about power armor infantry would be that humvees wouldn't necessarily need quite as much armor, they could be more like 4 seater ATV's, with each passenger already having the armor they need.

Personally, its just a very appealing fantasy, to swathe through twisted debris and enemy corpses, with thousands of rounds of ammo in a backpack hooked to my M240, almost invulnerable :thrasher:

Re: Armor Resources
 

I play to much fallout also:laugh:

Re: Armor Resources
 

Hey Rev, for some reason I have been thinking about armor lately and I am curious to know if you have made any progress on this project since you last posted on it. Any info/tips would be appreciated and if you want to keep it under wraps I will understand also. :wink:

Re: Armor Resources
 

I liked that knife protection hoodie in another thread.

Add some bullet stopping under it and it would not stick out in town as armor, but do considerable good. If one needed to leave the house in unsettled times. Not perfect, but I'm more worried about knives, small caliber long guns, and handguns than high power snipers in my situation.

But for a serious firefight your design is wonderful.

Being near town, and maybe needing to keep working, both of us, as long as we can to keep adding preps, I don't want to wear somethinmg that is like waving a red flag at LEOs. But out in the country like you are that is a splendid idea.

I wanted to fly ultra lights myself, but my pilot grand uncles said they were too easy to crash from sudden downdrafts out in west Texas where I was. They flew gliders for fun. They were near daredevils themselves so if they said something was too dangerous, it was. But where you are I bet those powerful rogue downdrafts are rare. Ultralights are the motorcycles of the air and how I would love to fly one. 100 mph straight winds are pretty common there and huge dust devils almost as strong as a mild tornado, and hilly which causes strange eddies in powerful winds.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Sorry to be such a armor newb, but it seemed to me that these guys had decent armor.


What were they wearing? It took a point blank head shot to drop these two.

Re: Armor Resources
 

I would also love to know what the two bank robbers were wearing. :D

A few months ago after reading the Argentinian blog which reported some of the after effects of there crash and items the blogger felt would have been helpful I recall he stated body armor and silencers.

In light of that I decided to hunt the market and find the best concealable vest I could get for a civilian. I had a very, very, tough time finding a reseller who would sell to a civilian. Pretty much everyone only wants to deal with Police Depts and restrict sales only to them.

I spoke to most of the managers and they were unwilling to bend their policy just for me. They did inform me that a new model came out from ABA called TORQ and most of them highly recommended it according to the needs and conditions I cited.

I finally found it here:
http://www.lcaction.com/ikorb.php?fu...roduct_id=1032
And had no problem placing the order. It appears to be a special order item for them but I got it after a 1.5 month wait. Excellent unit. Supposedly its the most effective concealable vest on the market at level iiia. Should note that it is pricey, actually twice the cost of most other units. From what I have been told you are paying for the weight reduction yet even greater protection against penetration in the new material they brought to market. ~$999

Oh, just for kicks I bought a dea face mask that you can get online which offers iiia protection. I hope I will never have to use it. :smokin:

Re: Armor Resources
 

Just a quick note on my experiences with body armor

Steal is great as long as you don�t get hit by AP or by anything going fast problem with steel plates is all of the force from the round is transferred through the body at the point of impact often ending in the person wearing the plate having a heart attack the great thing about ceramic is that it spider webs distributing the shock of the round through the whole plate and around the sides of the body instead of through the chest cavity.

Although the ceramics are prone to damage from non impact events I like them a lot better than the old steel chicken plates

I currently use the IBA by point blank and find it superior to 90% of the other armor systems out there. It fits well and when your carrying a full combat load with the MOLLE system it feels like half the weight. The interceptor also has side plates (those do mess with your maneuverability but are nice when on patrol in an area that may have snipers) It also has shoulder and under arm protection panels that take some getting use to but are fine after a few days of wear.

For daily work wear I have a IIIA under the shirt also made by point blank I've added a 5" X 8" IIIA ceramic trauma plate (from American Armor) to the front pocket and find the vest very light and maneuverable the ceramic is only a quarter inch thick and doesn�t mess with the consealability of he vest at all

As for full tactical I am using the ACH/MICH for a helmet and ESS ballistic goggles for the eyes. Hatch Kevlar tactical gloves and the new Army combat shirt (worn under the IBA is fire proof)

just my two cents

Also for those of you having a hard time getting a hold of body armor check EBay, Guns America, Auction Arms or better yet your local Army surplus store, ours here in town always have a couple of IBA's available

Re: Armor Resources
 

One of them sewed some custom clothing together for the both of them with layers upon layers upon layers of kevlar, and added steel plates in certain areas. They were both weight lifters, pretty strong guys, so they weren't terribly encumbered.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Discrimination lawsuit against pinnacle?

Re: Armor Resources
 

How hard is it to stitch layers of kevlar together, can you use just a regular sewing machine for that? Or can you fuse them together with glue or something?

Also, approx. how many yards of kevlar would it take to make one typical vest- broad estimate ?

Re: Armor Resources
 

Dang man, I read 'Armor Resources' and thought you wanted THIS kind of info... :wink:

http://www.mortarinvestments.eu/

http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/Tanks_...s_for_sale.htm

http://www.fightingiron.com/

http://www.khakicorpsimports.com/

This last one you have to scroll down for a Centurion Tank that's dressed up to look like an M1 Abrams

http://www.idahomotorpool.com/

Re: Armor Resources
 

I just bought a Point Blank "Interceptor LIIIA w/plates and collar, in very good condition, for $300 from a GI in the sandbox over at the "Monkey Forum".

I'm happy with it. I also have a LIIIA concealable without plates that my ceramic plates will fit. But again that would make it very bulky.

The Interceptor does restrict motion enough, that any more than that wouldn't be acceptable for me.

I'd consider metal only after the ceramic ones shatter, not before. Just personal prefference I guess.

Last note. Beware of false security with BA. Better to use good tactics.

Re: Armor Resources
 

It's a LVL III rating so .30-06AP is likely going to penetrate. Ceramic plates can realistically stop one or two hits from a LVL IV threat. The thing is in the real world most non-military potential enemies from a random Virginia Tech shooter to the gang bangers down the road are very unlikely to be shooting a .30-06AP class threat at you and most of the stuff that a military would have is either going to be shooting something a lot bigger than a LVL IV threat(think .50bmg) or will be shooting more of them in a burst than your armor can handle. There are a lot of things people think are AP that are not AP. SS-109/M-855 won't do anything to a steel plate. Most steel core ammo is also not AP, it doesn't have a hardened steel penetrator it has a mild steel core to displace strategically valuable lead.

Small, extremely fast bullets are a threat. M-193 is not nearly fast enough. These are typically a .224 caliber bullet in the 40gr class traveling at speeds well over 3500fps. The mitigating factor here is that these bullets tend to bleed velocity due to low weight, can't cope with any intermediate barriers and by the time they're through the steel they've done most of what they're going to do. They'll definately wound you but it won't be like being shot by the bullet. See, it won't even be a bullet that gets through. These small caliber, high velocity rounds defeat steel not by penetrating it but by melting it by virtue of all the heat that is produced when that kinetic energy focussed on a small area is stopped and lead has a lower melting point than steel. It's like slamming on the brakes at highway speeds. If your carrier is made of the right stuff and depending on what and how much you are wearing under it you'll likely experience an awful but survivable burn if you have decent care. The other part of this is also that almost nobody carries around mags of this stuff because it just isn't horribly useful on anything but gophers. Even if somebody knew you were wearing steel and specifically came after you with .40gr bullets flying at 4000fps you'd probably still wipe the floor with them because they wouldn't be able to hit you through your car/wall/tree stump/other intermediate barrier.

That's bad info. Much thinner non-rated steel is routinely used in the industry for trauma plates with soft armor to prevent exactly the kinds of injuries you're talking about. The plates we're talking about are a whole nothing ballgame. Even a close range hit by a .762x51 will barely cause any backface deformation. Heck, when I first got my steel plate I had a friend smack me square in the chest with a sledge hammer, slowly increasing the force, just to see how it distributes impact. If it performed as you were lead to believe I would have been turned to jelly.

Anyway it's the heat thing that explains how ceramic works as armor. It isn't that it is particularly strong. Sure, it has great strength but very little impact resistance. It's the fact that ceramic handles heat extremely well that makes it useful as armor. It's good stuff, I'd wear it if that's what I had available but for the average survivor or home defender you're going to run into the limitation of ceramic's fragility before you run into the limits of steel's ability to stop threats.

I don't know much about sewing machines because I've always done most sewing I've had to do with needle and thread, laboriously and with poor ability. The only one I have any time on is my grandmother's which is a cast iron Singer beast from the prehistoric. It could probably stitch sheet metal. I've been looking at sewing machines to make some custom nylon gear and the modern plastic stuff looks like garbage in comparison. I'm guessing you could stitch a few layers of kevlar with an ordinary sewing machine but eventually you'd tear up the machine and reach it's limits of ability to deal with the material. Most guys who've done this kind of work use commercial machines. I'd liken a sheet of kevlar to heavy webbing.

Here's some rough guidelines as to layering.

LVL IIA: 16 to 20 layers
LVL II: 20 to 24 layers
LVL IIIA: 24 to 28 layers

If you need LVL III+ switch to steel or ceramic.

Most adhesive are ok to use with kevlar. You can't fuse with heat because it will cause the kevlar to break down.

I've got my patterns done but my discretionary money right now is either going into the garden or PM's bought on the summer crash for sale in the winter rally. My wife might be getting me some plates to chop up for my birthday though. I'm not super-rushing this because I already have a conventional rig.

Re: Armor Resources
 

Hey now........mine's great and it's even flame resistant ! :D :D :D

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Sure, but how would it hold up to my +2 longsword of sharpness if I was wearing a cap of disintegration? It's a good thing we're friends. :D

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Heres your pic REV.



http://www.haloforever.com/images/ma...tgun_small.gif